Discussions of the Valar

[Indis]

Discuss the Valar here. Even historical events in the Ages of Arda and so on. What Valar or Valiar do you admir or do not like so much? Discuss your veiws. All discussions on History of Arda and such are here.

[artanaro]

Well I would like to start off this discussion with the Vala called Orome....
First off I would like to comment upon the issue of wolves in Tolkien's work. Wolves are pretty much always associated with evil and specifically with Morgoth (who bred the great wolf Carcaroth) and with Sauron (who often took the form of a wolf)....
We are led to believe that wolves are wholly evil. Because wolves may have been controlled and manipulated by both Morgoth and Sauron this may have been true for the most part in those times. I think that even in those times not all wolves were allied of the dark powers. I rather think that wolves were at first children of Orome so to speak before Melkor captured some of them and began breeding them to serve him, which then led Orome and the elves to breed wolfhounds to combat Melkor's perversions of the wolf. We are a long way from those times and the wolf , I think now is more in tune with the energy of Orome than Morgoth.
Since then we have become more in tune with the spirit of the wolf...
Wolf
In American Indian cosmology, wolf is not regarded as a lethal animal but as a teacher and pathfinder - one who leads the way. The wold has highly developed senses: its nose , for instance, is a hundred times more sensitive than the human's. It can sense the difference between real and imagines dangers.
The confrontation of Wolf as a power animal is an indication of being taken to meet your Inner Teacher and to receive direct, personal teaching. Wolf will reveal to you that anyone and anything can be a teacher. You can learn from trees, plants, animals, birds, rocks, and stones, and even from the wind and the rain. You just need to be alert and learn to listen. Wolf thus indicates a coming forth of knowledge that is beneath the level of consciousness and within the unconscious. Key Indicator : Ability to extend the senses (from Shamanic Experience by Kenneth Meadows)

The association of evil with the wolf may also be an influence from Tolkien's Catholic faith. In the Bible there are many associations between wolves and evil; and also with sheep and good.
Even if it was a belief of the elves based on the Legendarium, I am prepared to discard the idea that wolves = evil.....Although we are using the Legendarium as a framework, I feel it is necessary to revise outdated views and conceptions as necessary.
I do not think that the view was quite so dualistic during those times as Tolkien would have us believe.
So I think that associating the wolf with Orome is highly appropriate. After all Tilion the steersman of the moon is a Maia of Orome and the wolves are observed howling at the Moon as if in reverence or in tribute.

And here is a reference from Fellowship of the Ring that alludes to the existence of wolves not under the influence of the dark powers.
"It is as I feared," said Gandalf. "These were no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness. Let us eat quickly and go!" (Fellowship of the Ring, Book 2, Ch. 4 , page 336)

Thus I think that we can associate Orome with wolves and with the Moon.
Vana we can associate with the Sun (Arien was a Maia of Vana)
Orome and Vana were also husband and wife according to the lore of the Eldar...
Perhaps this was an elven way of illustrating a modern scientific fact that the light of the moon is caused by the Sun. This fact is shown in the story of Arien and Tilion. Moon phases are also explained with this as well.



Any thoughts or comments?

[artanaro]

Personally I resonate most with the energies of Manwe and Varda. I have had many contacts during meditation with Eonwe and Olorin.
Even in the past I was known as Starlight , shining star in the Elven tongue....So this resonance seems to carry over into all of my lives that I can remember ...a common thread or theme and each life is a single thread weaving a magnificent tapestry....

Artanaro

[Melfaroth]

Myself and the Valar

Concerning the Valar that I admire most, I will have to say that I do not really admire any one over the other.
I have felt great pride from Manwe, for he is the friend of eagles and I have ever been fond of the eagle. Gwaihir and Thorondor have ever been great icons of beauty and of regal nature to me, and I would gladly call them my friends. I remember that, while reading the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, I was always very extremely happy when they arrived to aid those that needed their help. It was always a thing of great relief to me, and especially in the Fall of Gondolin when Glorfindel fought with the balrog. In that time, when Glorfindel was pulled into the abyss by his golden hair, he fell to his death, and Thorondor, the 'King of Eagles', flew down to him and brought Glorfindel's body back up to the cliffs beneath his throne where the noldoli built a memorial for Glorfindel. And very graciously, Thorondor kept it there and never allowed any harm come to it ever after.
Now Varda is also a prominent figure in my mind because she is Mother to all of the absolutely beautiful and wonderous stars that I never stop loving. I ever long to see her children gleaming brightly in the night, as they are a reminder, to me, of the early days when there was no sunlight or moonlight and the Quendi lived beneath nothing but her vast expanse of the stars which gave us our light to see.
Ulmo is very much loved by me. I love his oceans, and I love to be near the tide and listen to the song of the waves and the seagulls. Ever is the sand at my bare feet while I am there, and I never where shoes while I am on the beach. It is a place of beauty and longing for me on the shores of the oceans. I ever yearn to return to them, for it is said, once you have heard the call of the Ulumuri, you will ever wish to hear the song of seagulls and the waves rolling off and on the beaches, and also a great longing for Westward voyage across the sea. There was even a point I considered that if I ever did wed someone, I would want to get married on the ocean beach.
Now, Yavanna is one I will ever greatly respect, for she is the mother of all the green things of the earth that I love and adore and, especially, the trees. Trees are strong and magestic, and ever exalted by me, for the trees are strong allies. As well as very beautiful ^_^
Aule, also is one that I care for greatly. He is the Father of the dwarrows (I have become fond of the idea that what he yearned for most was life that could know him as Father and that he could love them in return--very much the same as Iluvatar, I think) and the creator of the beautiful things forged of the earth. I am not much one for rocks and metals, but I do have to say that I am very enamored with strong and wonderous swords that serve as excellant means of defense against evil as well as beautiful pieces that have become a part of you as you have become one with them after many years of training and/or experiance in battle.
Now Orome has ever been one to have my adoration for his passion for the lands of Middle-Earth as well as ever being the chief enemy of the dread servants of Morgoth and Morgoth himself. He had with him his ever faithful horse/friend, Nahar (which very much took hold of me because it represented so much when it came to how that resembled Asfaloth's relationship with Glorfindel) and his noble wolf hounds which is exactly the origin of Huan the wolfhound whom I have grown to love so very much.
Tulkas is another whom I have come to respect and hold highly, for he represents great strength and courage against the filth that was made by Morgoth. But chiefly, Tulkas was ever the ready enemy of Morgoth. He was always at the front to face him when the Valar went to war against the Dark Lord. Not to mention, I always found it extremely humorous that Tulkas would laugh directly in Morgoth's face when he was to face sure defeat. Perhaps this is where I get my nasty habit of mocking those that I see as highly powerful evil fools who presume to rival the awesome might of Eru.
I now come to Mandos or Namo of the Feanturi who is keeper of the records of history and possibly some things that are to be. Kind of similar to the idea of Galadriel's mirror: "the mirror shows many things. Things that were, things that are, and some things that have not yet come to pass. Some things never come to be." (Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring) Although, I do believe that the records kept in the Halls of Mandos are much more certain and I would think most records of future times are probably not so highly kept there. Especially since it is stated that only Iluvatar knows what will come with the great battle against evil when the end of our ages of Arda will come to a close. Mandos, I have come to know simply through time. I feel that I know him, and that can only mean that I have indeed been to the Halls of Mandos before. This idea alone brings me close to him.
In Lorien, or Irmo of the feanturi, and of his spouse, Este, I find contentment and comfort in the thought of the easing of the hurts of Arda. It is a refreshing thing to even think about it, but it is not to my knowledge, as of yet, that I have actually been able to experiance the refreshment of their fountains in Lorien, where Lorien himself ever dwells (as did Olorin *wink*).
For Nienna, sister of the Feanturi, I find understanding and I have a feeling of great empathy, for, like her, I weep for all of the hurts of Arda and the children of Iluvatar, and I fear that this great sorrow will never end until the time comes for the end of our ages of Ea.
Now, in the Vala, Vana, I find great beauty and happiness, for she represents all that is new, that which I cherish greatly. I will fiercely fight my hardest to maintain the purity and innocense of children, until the bitter end. With her, I will ever keep joy and sweet tranquility within my heart.
There is also the spouse of Tulkas Astaldo (also the sister of Orome) named Nessa who is 'lithe and fleetfooted' and ever outruns the deer that she loves, 'swift as an arrow with the wind in her hair'. Like her, I am also very fond of deer as I find them graceful creatures of a serene sort of nature.
So, you see, I cannot really say that I admire any of them more. They all have my greatest love and highest respect. I will have to say, though, that of all the Maiar I will have to hold Olorin of the dreams in highest esteem, for he has ever been my teacher and has ever had my respect and loyalty as an ally. If I would trust nothing else in this world of ours (so corrupted as it could become; and already is) I would leave my trust in Olorin as he is truly wise and ever the friend and ally, of all the true children of Iluvatar.

Thus ends my accounts of Myself and the Valar.

[artanaro]

A beautiful account if I must say, though I must say one more thing....When we awoke the Sun and the Moon were there...to say that they were not would be trying to refute science which has clearly proven that the Sun and the Moon existed at that time...The reason we couldnt see the Sun or Moon was because of the massive volcanic activity and smokes caused by Melkor

"From the far North ...great clouds brood. Moon and stars are invisible. Day is only a dim twilight at full. Only light is in Valinor.
Varda arsises in her might and Manwe of the Winds strive with the Cloud of Unseeing. But as fast as it is rent Melkor closes the veil again- at least over Middle Earth. Then came the Great Wind of Manwe, and the veil was rent. The stars shine out clear even in the North (Valakirka) and after the long dark seem terribly bright. It is in the dark just before that the Elves awake. The first thing they see in the dark is the stars. But Melkor brings up glooms out of the East, and the stars fade away west. Hence they think from the beginning of light and beauty in the West....."
(Myths Transformed, Morgoths Ring, JRR Tolkien)

This was Tolkiens attempt to de-mythicize the Legedarium and in this part of the account , it is accurate according to my memories at Cuivienen. Just thought you might find that interesting....

Namarie
Artanaro

[Melfaroth]

Very good to thing to know. Though I am very curious when you say that 'it is accurate according to my memories at Cuivienen', but I thought you said yourself to be halfelven, not fully of the firstborn.. so how can that be? Unless, of course, you believe yourself to one of the Quendi during the awakening at Cuivienen.

namarie mellon,
Melfaroth

[artanaro]

I have had several elven incarnations...the first being at the place Tolkien called Cuivienen....I died at the hands of Morgoth's servants and did the rest of my family.....There was my incarnation as Artanaro Ereinion Gil Galad....I died at the end of the second age as you well know....then the Valar allowed me to reincarnate as halfelven during the third age....